Episode

Episode | Quick Take

Murray Jensen joins Kevin Patton to explore dual enrollment in anatomy & physiology. From guided inquiry to the power of teacher communities, this conversation reveals why messy classrooms often yield the best results.

00:00 | Introduction

00:48 | Murray Jensen, HAPS President’s Medal Laureate

02:27 | What Is Dual Enrollment, Anyway?

11:44 | Two-Word Check-In*

12:53 | Guided Inquiry, Not Guided Napping

25:51 | Concept Echo*

26:37 | No, Not Nightly Recorded Lectures

31:09 | Rigor Reality Check*

32:11 | Rigor, Range, & Real Talk

39:25 | Respect Reframe*

40:02 | Why It Matters: Heart, Head, & High School

47:55 | Slide Diet*

49:06 | Money, Mission, & a Playbook for Best Practices

54:04 | Staying Connected

* Breaks

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Episode | Transcript

The A&P Professor podcast (TAPP radio) episodes are made for listening, not reading. This transcript is provided for your convenience, but hey, it’s just not possible to capture the emphasis and dramatic delivery of the audio version. Or the cool theme music.  Or laughs and snorts. And because it’s generated by a combo of AI robot and human transcription, it may not be exactly right. So I strongly recommend listening by clicking the audio player provided or the captioned audiogram.

Introduction

Kevin Patton (00:01):
In her book, Teaching to Transgress, the cultural critic and author, bell hooks stated, “the classroom remains the most radical space of possibility in the academy. ”

Aileen Park (00:17):
Welcome to The A&P Professor. A few minutes to focus on teaching human anatomy and physiology with a veteran educator and teaching mentor, your host, Kevin Patton.

Kevin Patton (00:32):
In episode 155, Murray Jensen joins us for a chat about dual enrollment in A&P.

Murray Jensen, HAPS President’s Medal Laureate

Kevin Patton (00:48)
My guest for this episode is Murray Jensen, who’s a Professor of Biology Teaching and Learning at the University of Minnesota. Besides teaching, he does research that’s focused on teaching and learning in human anatomy and physiology, with a special emphasis on cooperative group learning and on process oriented guided inquiry learning, better known as POGIL and on Cooperative Group Learning. Dr. Jensen’s work has been recognized with some impressive honors over the years. Among other awards, he received the 2024 President’s Medal from the Human Anatomy and Physiology Society, which I mentioned in a previous episode. I’ve known Murray for decades and usually see him in person at least once a year. He’s widely known around anatomy and physiology faculty as being a supportive and helpful mentor, but also as a lifelong student of A&P teaching and learning himself—continually helping us all to be better, even as he continues his own learning. His enthusiastic and friendly approach is infectious. Just mention his name to anyone who knows him, and you’ll get an immediate smile. Prove me wrong. All of that reflects what you’ll hear in today’s conversation, a deep commitment to innovative teaching and to the communities of practice that support both teachers and students.

What is Dual Enrollment, Anyway?

Kevin Patton (02:27):
Let’s kick off with what dual enrollment looks like in the real world and why Minnesota is buzzing. Yeah, I’m here with Murray Jensen. Hi Murray.

Murray Jensen (02:37):
Hey, Kevin.

Kevin Patton (02:39):
How’s it going up there in Minnesota these days in a world of A&P teaching,

Murray Jensen (02:44):
Well, like everybody else, we’re ramping up, getting ready for fall, so I’m working on my syllabus, getting my course packet together, doing the usual stuff that marks the beginning of the semester.

Kevin Patton (02:54):
We’re here to talk about dual enrollment, which is one of a whole bunch of areas that you’re deeply involved in A&P education. You have lots of different projects going on, and one of the big ones is of course, dual enrollment. So what is your interaction with the world of dual enrollment right now?

Murray Jensen (03:15):
Well, sure. I should start by saying I’m a longtime NABT member, National Association of Biology Teachers. I was a high school biology teacher right out of college. Then I went back to graduate school, and now I’m an A&P professor, but my connections with the dual enrollment world goes all the way back to when I was a new high school teacher, but at the University of Minnesota. I’ve been doing dual enrollment for 14 years now, and our specific program is called College in the Schools. There’s lots of different names, but they go under the names, dual enrollment or concurrent enrollment. For the past 14 years, I’ve been working with local high schools, and currently I have about 28 high schools and about 1100 students a year going through our program.

Kevin Patton (04:03):
Wow. 1100 students. That is amazing. I can’t imagine coordinating something that involves that many people. I mean, even if we leave the coordination of students up to the local teachers, that’s still a lot of coordination in that. So hats off to you for keeping that going for so long, and I actually dipped my toe into that a little bit into your world a little bit. How long ago was that? Was like a year or so ago. You invited me to one of your meetings, your virtual meetings up there, and I got to chat with some of those folks.

Murray Jensen (04:36):
We have professional development days, and I believe that was a few years ago, and we were virtual. We did a Zoom meeting, but the professional development is a key part of this program. I see the teachers face-to-face at the University of Minnesota three times a year, so they have to come to the University of Minnesota in the fall, then again the spring, and then we have summer workshops as well. So that keeps us on our toes, and we’ve worked with each other now so long, we’re good friends. And so these workshops are very enjoyable and I’m able to bring in university professors, physiology professors, epidemiology, all sorts of different people. And so we do updates and then we also just talk about our classes, talk about headaches and what we can do differently. So this is a true learning community. This is, what is it called?

(05:27):
Community of practice. That’s it. Community of practice. And they lean on each other quite a bit. They send emails to each other if they’re looking for a lab or if they’re looking for a new activity. So this group is very, very unique. I should add in there at a high school, the anatomy and physiology professor, and my class is called Human Physiology. They’re typically the only person in their building that does anything with human physiology, and so they reach out by email and by phone calls and to others within our group for help. And so that creates a pretty tight group. And so it’s something I really enjoy, and the network between ’em is very, very key to the success of the program.

Kevin Patton (06:14):
Boy, it sounds like there’s a pretty strong network. I’d love to be part of a community of practice like that. That is so cool. I guess HAPS gets kind of close, but not as deep as you guys go.

Murray Jensen (06:26):
Yeah, the emails fly, I’ll tell you that. And they email each other far more. And I tell ’em as a college professor, my students are different. My students are 18, 24 years old, their students are 15 to 18 years old, so there’s going to be questions that you’re better off asking another high school instructor than asking me. And so they’ve developed friendships and they’ve got kind their own groups. And I’m not a part of all the communication, but that’s fine. That’s just fine. But I send out email blasts and we go back and forth, but most of the communication is between two or three individuals within the group. And like I said before, they’re friends. They’re all good friends, and they’re very comfortable complaining to each other, complaining about the principal, complaining about, but they share headaches. They all can relate to each other.

Kevin Patton (07:19):
Right, right. Yeah, I can see that. Before we get too much further along, I just want to clarify if anybody would have too much difficulty understanding the concept of dual enrollment, but I guess there are different flavors of dual enrollment and so on. So in your mind, what is dual enrollment and are there different flavors of it, or am I looking at things wrong?

Murray Jensen (07:40):
Yes, but in essence, here’s the way it works. So I have my class at the University of Minnesota. It’s called Biology 1015 Human Physiology, and there’s students at the U of M who enroll in my course and take my course, just like any college course. And then once it’s offered at the University of Minnesota through a dual enrollment program, you can also offer that same course at a high school. And at the high school, students will enroll in essence in two courses. One is the college course, and the second is the high school course, and that’s where you get dual enrollment or concurrent enrollment. And so in essence, they’re taking two courses at once, the high school and a college course. Some students actually are in the room and take it just for the high school credit. They don’t want the college pressure. I guess that’s not many that do that, but most of the students take both courses at once, and then if they’ll fulfill the requirements of the course, they get credit at both the University of Minnesota and at their high school for graduation.

(08:54):
And so this is where we get the notion of incoming freshmen, 18 year olds who are just arriving at the University of Minnesota right now, and they already have 20 credits or they might have 30 credits. It’s just amazing. A lot of students now graduate in three years, which is, I’m not necessarily in favor of that. I don’t like the idea of getting pushed through your college experience, but through things like dual enrollment and then the other big player is the Advanced Placement program, students are able to accumulate credits while they’re in high school that speed up the college process. It’s a course that has to be offered at the U, and then it’s also offered at the high school. And I am in charge of quality control, and I oversee all the teachers and make sure that it’s the same rigor. And that’s the word. Is it the same class on both the college campus and in the high school? But I meet with the teachers and I’m in charge of making sure they’re up to speed.

Kevin Patton (09:58):
I actually was in dual enrollment when I was in high school. We didn’t call it that, but it’s pretty much exactly the model you have, except I’m not positive about what happened on the teacher’s end of things. I don’t know how often they met. I know they did meet with, well, I guess it’s the same thing here, people in their department at the university. And I came out of high school with 24 credits, if I remember right.

Murray Jensen (10:23):
Okay, so did you graduate in three and a half years?

Kevin Patton (10:26):
No, no. I got… I mean…that was back in the day when there were a lot more government grants and scholarships available. I mean, it was an expensive college. It was at St. Louis University, which is a Jesuit school. They had pretty hefty tuition, but I had that extra help, and it went for four years. It wasn’t based on how many credits you needed. It was four …

Murray Jensen (10:49):
Four years. You’re in

Kevin Patton (10:50):
…four year program. And so what I used that extra time for was to do my education classes. And I used that extra semester. I had to do my student teaching, so I came out doing high school biology teaching as well. So you and I kind of paralleled each other, except I had a little in-between time between graduation and my first teaching job where I was an apprentice lion tamer. But that was just kind of an extension of student teaching

Murray Jensen (11:19):
…apprentice lion tamer?

Kevin Patton (11:20):
…apprentice lion tamer, yeah. But anyway, other than that, it was the same. And that was a great experience being a high school biology teacher. Okay, we know the what. Now let’s get into how they teach it without defaulting to 111 slides. That’s when we come back.

Two-Word Check-In*

Kevin Patton(11:45):
We are going to pause for a quick reset, close your eyes and think, well, wait, wait, wait. Don’t close your eyes if you’re driving right now or operating any kind of machinery or crossing the street or shopping vegetables. You know what? Let’s just forget that. Just keep your eyes open and think of two words that describe your students this term. One word should be about energy, and the other word should be about habits. Once you have your two words, say them out loud to kind of help lock ’em into your awareness for the moment or jot them down. If you’re able to do that. Now, ask yourself what one tiny tweak could improve both. Hit the pause button now if you need another minute or two, and then hold that idea and move on to the next segment of this episode. We’re about to talk about pedagogy that makes it all happen.

Guided Inquiry, Not Guided Napping

Kevin Patton (12:53):
Well, I’m back with Murray Jensen, and just a moment he’s going to reveal his secret sauce. I got a question for you. Are you involved in choosing which of the teachers at that school are qualified?

Murray Jensen (13:09):
Yeah, they got to get through me, and they laugh at that one because I drill ’em pretty hard in terms of the interview process, especially in the early days. And I’m getting to be a softie now, I admit that. But the deal with who gets to teach in this program is a big deal because I only take teachers who are expert educators, and the thing I look for most is a gleam in the eye, somebody who is excited to be in the classroom and still has a spark. There’s a lot of teachers out there who are just counting days to retirement, and it’s like, Nope, nope. I don’t want them. I want somebody who actually takes on the classroom every day as a, wow, this is a cool opportunity to interact with smart 16, 18 year olds and do cool stuff with human physiology. That’s the most important qualification I have for getting in the program. But my program is quite different than most in that we use guided inquiry and cooperative quizzes and we do pedagogy that’s quite different than most college classrooms. I really encourage, don’t lecture, don’t use PowerPoint. It’s a challenge to teach in that classroom, but the teachers love it. They all say it’s the best class of the day.

Kevin Patton (14:34):
Considering that you’re really pushing them to use some contemporary cutting edge pedagogy, do people that are new to teaching in your program, do they push back a little bit on that or do they see that as a great opportunity to learn a new way of doing things?

Murray Jensen (14:51):
That’s the interview process. In the interview process, it’s just like, are you open to new ways of teaching? And I’ll give you a couple of stories here. I’ve had teachers who have been traditional teachers for 10 years, and then they joined our program. And I look at ’em and I say, this is going to change the way you operate your classroom. And if they kind of look at me funny and smile, say, this sounds fun, that’s a good sign. And then another part of it is we send them to POGIL workshops. The POGIL workshops, P-O-G-I-L, process oriented guided inquiry learning. The POGIL workshops are excellent. They have three day in-person workshops where you earn the basics of group learning and guided inquiry. And with that foundation we can build and build, but it takes two or three years to get into the groove of making this a natural way to run your class. It’s just too easy to turn on PowerPoint for some teachers. It’s just too easy to go back. But now they know what I want. I want conversation. I want arguments. I want discussions in the classroom that are heated about homeostasis or control systems and things. But it’s a fun way to teach after you get used to

Kevin Patton (16:15):
It. I can imagine that it really does light a fire under some teachers that weren’t used to that or maybe didn’t know a lot about how to even get started doing that. So this is really improving education all around, not just the course, your course that’s affected because they’re going to bring that into their other courses, like you mentioned.

Murray Jensen (16:38):
Yeah, and the teachers that have in the past, I don’t know the the current status of it, but in the past when 14 years ago they were asked to run workshops at their high schools, we had a few of them were saying, Hey, can you run the workshop so that the other high school teachers can kind of see how this guided inquiry stuff works? And so yeah, we’ve got a history of lighting a fire within the whole school in some cases.

Kevin Patton (17:04):
Oh man. That is awesome. So once people get into this, do you ever have any of ’em that get into that and decide that this dual enrollment thing isn’t for them either because of the dual enrollment aspect, something about that or this part of it that is the guided inquiry and the various kinds of pedagogy that you’re pushing them to use?

Murray Jensen (17:26):
That’s a good one. I have a range. I have a range, and I know these people very well, and I know that some of ’em just lightin’ the world on fire, and I think you should have ’em on your podcast actually. They’re just that good, but they’re fun to talk to and it’s just like, how do you do what you do? But I also have others that they’ve been teaching for 15, 20 years and now they jumped in because I thought we could make a change. And I know they’re struggling. I know they’re struggling, but their students are still doing fine. But I know it’s not as easy for some as others. And a big deal with guided inquiry is control. You got to be willing to give up the control of your classroom and let the students talk to each other. And there’s a lot of instructors out there who just can’t handle giving up the microphone and letting students…

(18:20):
…and when students are talking to each other, it’s often messy. It takes a while for them to figure out a concept and to listen to students figure things out is enjoyable for all of us who are used to it. But for many traditional teachers, they want to jump in and say, no, no, no. This is how muscles work. This is how energy is used to within a muscle. They want to correct students quickly, but it’s a messy, messy classroom. And that’s what I like. And that’s what guided inquiry teachers, the ones who do it well, they just wait. They will let students figure things out for themselves as opposed to jumping in. But I know I still have teachers that just can’t let it ride. They got to jump in and tell students answers. So imagine that some are better teachers than others.

Kevin Patton (19:10):
Imagine that! Whenever I’ve tried and implemented things that involved letting go and having the students really run their own show in learning, boy, that brings back all those memories of those early days of trying that where I just felt like somebody was going to catch me not doing my job. Number one. Yeah, go ahead,

Murray Jensen (19:37):
Jim. And I got to tell you, it’s in the interview process. It’s just like you are going to have some miserable days. You are going to have days that just, why am I doing this? And there’s a faith thing. It’s just like, trust me, after a while, this is going to go better. But the first year is just ridiculously hard. I don’t know if you know the different types of inquiry, but man, when I was just starting as professor, I started something called open inquiry, which I’ll just say it doesn’t work with entry level students. Open inquiry doesn’t work. You need some guidance. But the open inquiry stuff I did, it was just like they learned nothing. And I was frustrated and I was just like, oh my gosh. But with experience, you dial in. It’s just like this question works today. That question doesn’t work, but you know what clues, what questions to ask, what buttons to push to generate the conversation, and that’s always the goal.

(20:43):
What do I do to get students talking? You got to have a topic. You got to have some questions that get ’em to think and to talk. But yeah, you are going to have some miserable days when you start. And with time though, you dial it in. We’ve got our set of activities that we use, and it’s different in different classrooms. It’s just like, this works with my students. Well, it didn’t work with mine. That’s fine. Every classroom is different. But yeah, you bring up a good point. When you first start this stuff, it’s hard and you’ll have bad days. But what I tell ’em, it’s just like your paycheck’s the same, and it’s fine with me. If you have a bad day and you can send an email to somebody and just say, what the heck happened here? This thing fell apart. But that’s just teaching. That’s running a classroom.

Kevin Patton (21:34):
When you talk about students really getting in there and debating things and really getting excited about it, reminded me of a situation I had in a lab class where this class was, I mean, this group of students was just, they interacted really, really well from the get go. So I was very fortunate to get that, but they really got into that sort of friendly competition to get to the right answer, or maybe there’s several right answers, and then argue about that we were doing something which would otherwise be, I think, kind of boring, I guess. And we were learning histology. I was throwing up at the end of the class after they were done working in small groups, we had a flash quiz that I put up on the board with slides. They had clickers, so they were clicking, which is the correct answer, and they were, oh my gosh, they were yelling at each other. I felt like I was at a professional wrestling match or something.

Murray Jensen (22:33):
And that’s fun, right? That’s a class you remember as opposed to the class that just sat there and stared at you. Exactly.

Kevin Patton (22:41):
Yeah. And so I was great. Well, I invited my dean in who actually was a former A&P teacher, invited my dean in to do my evaluation in that course. I thought, man, this is my best course. And I mean, this is great. And they’re doing exactly. And I thought, oh, I hope they don’t fall flat on their face this one day or whatever. But they didn’t. They were in great form. And then afterward, my dean is like, I thought that class was going to get out of control. I never seen anything like that. And I’m like, yes, yes, you’re right. That’s exactly right. Isn’t that great?

Murray Jensen (23:19):
Here’s a strange phrase, but the teachers I work with know it. I like it when it’s out of control. As long as they’re using the language of the discipline, if they’re using words that you and I know and every in that every Anat-Fiz teacher knows, as long as they’re talking about topics in human physiology, I like out of control. And especially when you have smart students arguing with each other, and that’s a key. They got to be smart. They’ve got to know how to engage in an argument, keep it civil, and that’s a job of a high school teacher. Keep it civil, keep it civil, respect one another, be able to win, be able to lose, be able to admit when you’re wrong, but in the end, you’re going to have a better understanding of nature. In the end, you’re going to have a better understanding of human physiology. And that’s the goal,

Kevin Patton (24:10):
Right? Yeah. Well, and even just the nature of science is like that. Is that debate. It’s an

Murray Jensen (24:16):
Argument. It’s an argument, yeah. But yeah, it’s good stuff. It is just so fun when you have smart young students who are able to have a conversation, but on the other side, and some classes are just duds, and I get emails from some teachers. It’s like, man, this year these students are just quiet. And COVID did a number on it. It’s just like, oh my gosh. Talking with them, it’s just like after COVID, the students coming back trying to get ’em back to normal, back to face-to-face communication, and it took a hit, took a real hit.

Kevin Patton (24:56):
I guess that having that community of practice that you talked about was a great thing under those conditions so that they could communicate that with each other and sort of lean on each other as they went through that.

Murray Jensen (25:11):
Yeah, I gave ’em a lot of freedom there. It’s just do the best you can with what you have. And we had teachers in the parking lot handing out hearts and brains and to be sent home, and the parents were like, what the heck is going on here? Kitchen table is now a dissection table. But yeah, I’m so happy.

Kevin Patton (25:33):
Well, it looks like the secret sauce is less podium, more conversation, and maybe add to that, that out of control is the best kind of control when it comes to those conversations.

Concept Echo*

Kevin Patton (25:52):
Get ready to hit pause again because we’re going to use this brain break to take 90 seconds and define guided inquiry in your own words, just your own simple words, no jargon. Now, add one thing after you’ve got a quick definition, that thing is how you’ll try it this week. So we need a definition and how you’re going to try it this week. Now without closing your eyes, because closing your eyes may not be safe. Try to picture the moment you’ll let the class get productively messy. That’s the move we’re going to be looking at in the next segment. We’re back with more conversation with Murray Jensen about his experiences of dual enrollment.

No, Not Nightly Recorded Lectures

Murray Jensen (26:45):
And here’s another thing just to know about me and the program. We get asked this once in a while. I do not allow online distance learning. It’s got to be face-to-face. That’s just who I am. Some people can run online classrooms, and we should probably talk about this too, a different flavor of dual enrollment. We’ve been talking about what my program is at the University of Minnesota, but there’s a lot of schools that will have a dual enrollment, and the lectures from the colleges are recorded, and students at night just go home and just watch the lecture that was given at the college that day. And then in the classroom, the teachers are basically employed as teaching assistants to go over problems. And that model exists. That model definitely does exist, but I don’t think it’s optimal. I don’t want students watching recorded lectures. They can do TikTok, they can do YouTube on their own, but having to sit there and watch somebody go through PowerPoint slides, oh my goodness, that not sound like an enjoyable learning experience.

Kevin Patton (27:55):
I don’t think as a student, I could have made it very far in a program like that.

Murray Jensen (28:01):
I should mention this. This is kind of the politics of concurrent enrollment, dual enrollment, just politicians. Well, the schools, the high schools pay the tuition for the university, so there’s money flow from the high schools to the University of Minnesota, and that money flow is political, of course. And politicians like this program because you can speed up the clock, you can get students graduating at the University of Minnesota in three years or even two and a half years and parents like that too. I’m only going to pay three years of tuition and not four. So there’s kind of a lot of financial stuff involved in this, but with the teachers I work with and myself included, it’s just like, oh my gosh, this notion of hurry up and graduate is not healthy for a lot of kids. Their maturity just isn’t ready for the big world yet.

(29:03):
So a 20-year-old who’s maybe super smart in engineering just might not be ready to go out and have their own apartment in a different city, but a lot of pushing. But I try to, what we do with our program is just like, okay, yeah, there is college credit, but the most important thing here is helping students make up their minds of, do I want to pursue a career in STEM? Do I want to pursue a career in healthcare? And the answer “no” is just fine with me. If a kid is 17, 18 and thinking they’re having to be a medical because mom and dad are pushing and they look at this material and just get turned off, help ’em make a valid decision. It’s just like this world is not for me. But yeah, there’s a lot of pushing. It’s just hurry up and graduate. And if you take 12 credits your senior year of high school, you might be able to get through the university in two and a half years. And I don’t think that’s healthy. That’s my opinion. Yeah, the politicians love it because it’s less money, less time at the publicly funded universities.

Kevin Patton (30:14):
Yeah, I get that. But I agree with you that part of the education that I think students get at both high school and college level is more than just what’s going on in their classes anyway. So getting them out of there quicker is, I think it’s cheating them of additional experience that they’re going to have with each other and with themselves,

Murray Jensen (30:39):
Helping ’em grow up. There’s a lot more to growing up than learning the core concepts of human physiology. Learning to have a good conversation at one in the morning in your dorm room with some good friends and just to learn, hang out. Those are skills that you typically don’t learn by just keeping your nose in a book.

Kevin Patton (30:59):
Exactly. Exactly. Let’s take another quick brain break, and then we’ll be back with more from Murray Jensen.

Rigor Reality Check*

Kevin Patton (31:09):
For this brain break, we’re going to try and come up with three signals that we could see in a course that tells us that it’s rigorous without being rigid. Get it? Rigor without rigidity. Here are a couple of examples of signs to kind of get your thinking started. For example, one sign is when students ask better questions, another sign is when they argue with the evidence, another sign is they revise and refine their ideas faster. Okay, so try to come up with three, then ask yourself, do I see any of these signals in my course? Does this usually change as the course progresses? Discuss. …well, I guess with yourself, or okay, with a friend,—because you’re probably having a podcast listening party, right?!

Rigor, Range, & Real Talk

Kevin Patton (32:11):
We’re back with Murray Jensen, and I want to talk about rigor.

(32:17):
When I was still in the classroom, every once in a while somebody would mention dual enrollment in some context, maybe they were discussing a particular student and they said, well, did they have biology before they came into A&P? And well, yeah, but it was dual enrollment and that “but” always struck me because had a really good dual enrollment experience myself, I’m thinking that they’re thinking of this as less. And, I mean, I’ve seen eyes roll when the term dual enrollment comes up. I don’t know if that’s still as big a deal as it used to be, but it seemed like a lot of my colleagues who never had any experience of dual enrollment have this preconception that it’s “less than” in some way. In my experience, not only as a student in dual enrollment, but my experience with people like you who interact with dual enrollment programs, tells me the opposite. It’s actually a really, really good experience. Have you seen that at all, or is that just my little pocket of the universe? And if you have seen it, is that still around? Is that an issue?

Murray Jensen (33:30):
Well, with skeptics, professors who are skeptics, I’m pretty honest, just to say there’s going to be a range. There’s going to be a range of quality and a range of rigor. And if you take a really high achieving classroom in a high school, they’re often working harder and students are doing better and better work than what you can find inn a lot of colleges. I’m totally convinced that some of my toughest College-in-the-School’s teachers, their classes are tougher than mine. And there’s reasons for that. And I’m just fine with that. My students are different than their students. Their students are just top, top of the line, and those teachers know how to push ’em, so their exams are tougher than my exams. I’m just fine with that. They’re all supposed to be the same. That’s the quality control part, but “gasp,” they’re not. Some of the schools are probably a little bit easier than me, and some are tougher than me, but by and large, the people I’m with just kind of accept it as a fact now.

(34:37):
And I should probably explain the University of Minnesota’s College of Biology, freshmen biology class. We have designed our freshmen biology class to kind of just say, we expect you to have advanced placement biology. We expect you to have rigorous high school biology. But yeah, that’s what we expect. Now, here’s your freshman biology class. It’s called Foundations, and it’s massive and it’s an amazingly difficult class, and students come out of there just like, whoa. They’re on their way to being pretty high-end biologists. But yeah, many of my students go into that program. When I say my students, they took high school dual enrollment, and they’re well equipped. They’re well equipped. Yeah. I cannot deny the fact that there’s going to be a range. There’s dual enrollment programs that probably are not worth their salt. I don’t want to be one of ’em. The teachers I work with, they know what I require, so there’s no mixed messages there. But yeah, I’ve heard some programs that are basically just, they’re in it for the money. The schools need it for the money, and the teachers are just calling it in. Of course, that exists. That’s human nature, but I really don’t want it in my program. My program’s got a good reputation and I work hard to keep it.

Kevin Patton (35:58):
How did you step into this? I mean, how did you get into the dual enrollment end of things?

Murray Jensen (36:06):
The college and the schools, I guess, has been at the university for about 30 years, and my boss in 15, 16 years ago said, do you know Susan Henderson? And it’s just like, oh, I kind of know that name. And Susan Henderson made an appointment to come see me in my office and Susan says, have you ever heard of dual enrollment? And she was a nice person and she was explaining the program, and it’s just like, man, this is meant for me. I love high schools. I really missed high school teaching. Part of the secret sauce of my program is I was a high school teacher. I know what the schools are like. I know the chaos of the classroom. I know the chaos of the cafeterias. I know the problems you have with principals. And so when teachers talk to me, I can smile and say, yep, done that. Been there. And most dual enrollment course leads the college professors. They were not high school teachers, so they don’t have that same knowledge and background that you and I have. We know what it’s like. Yeah, there’s a range there. There’s a range there. But it goes back to a person named Susan Henderson making an appointment and just saying, would you like to do this? And it’s just like, yeah, this sounds great.

Kevin Patton (37:24):
Boy, that sounds like you. Like, yeah, I’ll try that. I think I can do that. Are there misunderstandings that maybe parents have or maybe the teachers in their local schools have about dual enrollment?

Murray Jensen (37:43):
Oh, absolutely. And I have my syllabus up. I have my syllabus up right now, and I’ve got some language that I make sure all the teachers send out to the parents, you got to listen to this. It’s just like Bio 1015 is a freshman-level introduction to human physiology. Biology 1015 is not the first semester of a two-semester A&P course. Bio 1015 is not a substitute for a higher-level anatomy and physiology course. We have parents that kind of think that after this class, they’re going to go to med school. It’s just like, no, no. And knowing what you’re not communicating, they …

Kevin Patton (38:31):
they can skip med school.

Murray Jensen (38:31):
What?

Kevin Patton (38:31):
They can skip med school after taking your course!

Murray Jensen (38:37):
It’s just misconceptions about what it takes to get into healthcare. And we have medical doctors and nurses and research. The kids who have gone through our program are now, it’s been 15 years, 14, 15 years, and we’ve been interviewing some of ’em and kind of like, what did we do that influenced your decisions and what have we done? And we’re still working at that. That’s kind of the research project I’m working on is what’s the best topics and what’s the best teaching methods. But they all talk about, it’s just like that class helped me figure out that I wanted to go into healthcare. This is a topic I really enjoy.

Kevin Patton (39:20):
Let’s take another quick brain break.

Respect Reframe*

Kevin Patton (39:25):
In this break, I’m asking you to think of a high school teacher that you know or are acquainted with, or who you could introduce yourself to, who could teach you something about classroom management or motivation. What would you ask them over a cup of tea? Write out that question when you get a chance or make a voice note for yourself right now. Okay. That’s going to be the core of your next outgoing email.

Why It Matters: Heart, Head, & High School

Kevin Patton (40:02):
Have you ever had a moment where you thought to yourself, yes, this is why dual enrollment matters. This is why I do what I do.

Murray Jensen (40:15):
I visit the high schools. That’s another part of this, and I visit the high schools. And when I do that, I talk with students, I talk with teachers, and I really have a big heart for education. Heart and head, and I use ’em both in teaching and learning. But when I see the job of high school teachers, it’s just like, oh my gosh, that is such a cool world—to be a part of kids’ lives and to have that much impact on a kid. And a kid looks at the teacher kind of as a science nerd, but it’s still five days a week. They’re there. They’re role models and it’s just like, oh my gosh, what a cool thing to do with your life. And then to give them tools. And I write a lot of curriculum. It’s primarily me that writes the activities and then they tweak ’em. But it’s just like I write a lot and they use ’em, they use the activities, and it’s just like, huh, this is a pretty good formula. This is really a good formula. I provide them with some structure and some teaching methodologies, and then I see them put it into place and it’s just like, yep, this is a good thing to be doing.

Kevin Patton (41:32):
It’s given me a good feeling just listening to what your experience has been and well, and like I say, I sat in on that zoom meeting a while back, and it was really fun to listen to the interaction between different instructors that are in the program and them reflecting what’s going on in their programs. Is there anything else about dual enrollment programs that you think that the rest of us teaching anatomy and physiology at the college level or even at the high school level, things that we might not know about it that we ought to think about?

Murray Jensen (42:08):
Sure. Well, there, I think the first one is respect. The high school teachers respect the high school teachers. It’s just like they are the experts in teaching and learning, and they are typically better at it than college professors. They spend more time in the classroom. They understand kids more than we understand kids. We understand their topics, our physiology, our anatomy, but they understand kids better and so respect that knowledge and help them achieve goals. But man, looking down your nose at high school teachers, that [beep]s me off, sorry. I used probably a bad word there, but I’ve seen that. I have seen that where it’s dual enrollment programs where the college professors just treat their teachers poorly. It shows it’s just like, well, I’ve got to do, my principal says I have to do this. It’s a part of my assignment, but my goodness, I want it to be the best part of the day.

(43:12):
It’s just like, I love doing this as opposed to I have to do this. And there’s college professors that have that feeling that, oh, I’ve been assigned to work with the high schools and it’s a chore. It shouldn’t be a chore. And if it is, get out of it because the kids figured that out too. It’s just like, oh, they’re just going through the motions here. So there’s got to be a love of it. And I should say that ideally there should be a love of it, and that’s me. This is something I’m truly passionate about. And let’s see here. That’s probably the big one, is the relationship between the course professor at the university and the high school teachers. There’s got to be respect there, in my opinion. And if there’s not, get out of there and then the money thing is just tainting the whole system.

(44:03):
It’s just like there’s a lot of colleges now that are hurting for students. They just don’t have the numbers of students that they used to have. And so the administrators are looking at dual enrollment as a way to beef up their tuition revenue. And then you end up again, just forcing the program, oh, we’re assigning you the high school students, and there’s high school kids who are just really motivated to become nurses, really motivated to become healthcare professionals, and they’ll tolerate bad classes. They’ll tolerate watching an hour of lecture a night that’s been recorded at the local college, but my goodness, do better, do better.

Kevin Patton (44:49):
Do you think that the administrators who are pushing this, whether it be for the monetary benefits to the school or the program or whatever, do you think they eventually get to a point where they have a motivation to do a good job for the students and to really make it a high quality program? Or do you think there are a lot of programs out there that really just stay at that level of this is a money maker and that’s the beginning and end of what we’re doing here?

Murray Jensen (45:21):
Yeah. We had a meeting this past year where we sat down with a couple of high school teachers, a couple community college coordinators, and I was kind of surprised with a lack of passion. I shouldn’t say that probably, but it’s just like, boy, this sounds like a mechanical program, but I would like to see more spark in the eye. And that’s fine. It’s just like, this is my job. I do my job, I do my job well, but then I go home and I take it with me. I’m thinking about the teachers all the time and I’m thinking about the kids and new curriculum ideas, and you can’t expect everybody to have that level of passion. And it doesn’t mean they’re not good at it. It just means that it’s not the center of their life. And for me, I’ve got two things that I do.

(46:11):
It’s community colleges and high schools. That’s the world that I work with. I think there’s increasing pressure on school administrators to get the budget balanced, and this is just another revenue flow, and I’m just going to say that’s a flag. It doesn’t mean they don’t do it well. It just means there’s pressure, and that pressure is going to mean they’re going to be just getting pushed to put students in the seat and getting more revenue in, and we’ll see where it goes. I am not an administrator. I’m a professor and my administrator in the college and the schools program, the people I’ve worked in has been great. They tell me the financial side of things, and I am a big revenue generator for that program. I got 1100 students, a thousand students, 1100 students. That’s a lot of tuition dollars. And they treat me well. They treat me very well. And when I say this teacher at this school, it’s like, no, I don’t want them in here. They don’t have what it takes to be in my program. They don’t say, well, you’ve got to take like, okay, it’s your decision. And so they give me autonomy and I appreciate that. But yeah, I get the feeling that sometimes kind of a forced marriage, it’s just like, you will take this school because they have a hundred students that are willing to pay tuition to take this class. That’s not a good relationship.

Kevin Patton (47:39):
Yeah, I can imagine that. That would not work out very well. Hey, let’s take a quick break and when we come back, we’ll wrap up our chat with Murray Jensen as we talk about dual enrollment.

Slide Diet*

(47:55):
Next time you have a few minutes at your desk, open your next A&P slide deck. Then remove five slides that don’t spark discussion. Replace them with two prompts that force partner talk, something like argue for carbaminohemoglobin’s importance in maintaining life. Or, predict what fails if carbaminohemoglobin fails. Okay. Those are just examples …and opportunities for me to say one of the terms that I’d love to say, longtime listeners know that— carbaminohemoglobin. Okay, then save that revised slide deck where you’ve put those prompts, after removing some other slides that aren’t going to be sparking any discussion. So with that saved slide deck, use it in your course when it comes up. Come on. Just try it and then tell us what happened.

Money, Mission, & a Playbook for Best Practices

Kevin Patton (49:06):
Well, Murray, are there any other big things cooking in the world of dual enrollment in A&P?

Murray Jensen (49:12):
Looking down the road? I’m thinking of trying to write a small grant that brings together for anatomy and physiology, dual enrollment, bring in some community colleges, bring in some administrators, bring in some high school teachers, and come up with a best practices document. It’s kind of like what can we produce? What sort of policy document? I don’t know if the word policy fits there, but best practices. And so as dual enrollment grows and it is growing, this is doing nothing but growing. Help, administrators, teachers, and professors out with, okay, what can we do here to help students get a good learning experience? And the students are the key. It’s all about the students. I work with the teachers, but the teachers work with the students, and student learning has got to be the goal. It’s not the revenue. It’s not the money. You need that, of course, but it’s just like what happens in this program so as to optimize student learning and student development. But that’s a project down the road. I got a few other to get done first, but that’s a topic I’m thinking about is trying to develop a best practices document for dual enrollment anatomy and physiology.

Kevin Patton (50:36):
That sounds really exciting. I would like to see that. And I guess that leads me to the question of, I mean, do you see that as being something that can also be adapted for people teaching at the college level too? Because I mean, a lot of the things that are going to work in dual enrollment are going to work in the regular on-campus classes, I think.

Murray Jensen (50:59):
Well, this is a push for me. It’s in human physiology, it’s core concepts, and I know the people in the Core Concepts research group, and it’s just like as far as curriculum is concerned, without a doubt, introductory classes should focus on core concepts, and so that’s an easy one. But then the second item there is how should the core concepts be taught? And I am extremely biased in terms of guided inquiry, cooperative group learning. Students, having discussions using the language of the discipline over, “I’m going to show you 27 PowerPoint slides on energy flow.”

(51:44):
A PowerPoint is just so… what? It’s so efficient at dispersing information, but so inefficient at generating conversation. But it’s the conversation. I’m a constructivist. Students learn best when they’re engaged in conversations using the language of the discipline. When I’m thinking about entry level courses, that’s what I think should be done—over “It’s just like, here’s 111 PowerPoint slides. Any questions? Any questions?” It’s boring. But yeah, that’s me. That’s me for best practices in entry level science. We’ll see what other people think too. There’s probably a research project there, but generally active learning, and that’s an overused word, active learning wins out over PowerPoint.

Kevin Patton (52:37):
I think that’s a great spot to wrap things up. Murray, I really appreciate your time and I appreciate all the effort that’s gone into your program. I’m sure there’s far greater benefit than even you realize with all those thousands of students out there now doing their thing, and you had a hand in that, so congratulations.

Murray Jensen (52:59):
Some very, very successful people are not in the STEM world that have been through my program, and I keep reminding the teachers that. So it’s like even if they take a tough human physiology class and they say, that’s not for me, that’s a success. We helped a kid make a decision. But yeah, there’s a lot of graduates of this program, that’s for sure. And Kevin, I’d encourage you to maybe in a future program, talk to a couple of the teachers, because I’m not in the day-to-day world of what happens in the high school, and I think your audience might enjoy hearing what happens on a day-to-day basis in the high schools.

Kevin Patton (53:40):
I know. I would love to hear that. So that’s a definite yes on that, so you and I are going to have to work on making that happen. Sounds good. You take care, Murray, and I’m sure I’ll see you around at the next HAPS meeting or before, and I hope you have a successful start to your new semester.

Murray Jensen (54:00):
Well, thanks, Kevin.

Staying Connected

Kevin Patton (54:04):
Well, here we are at the end of another adventure together. Let’s take a breath and remind ourselves of the main takeaways from today’s chat with my friend Murray Jensen about dual enrollment in A&P. One big thing that stood out is the power of community. Murray described how his program isn’t just about students collecting credits. It’s about building a network of teachers who swap ideas, support each other, and sometimes just commiserate about the everyday headaches of teaching. That sense of belonging can be just as valuable as the coursework itself. We also heard about his insistence on quality. Dual enrollment is not as some skeptics might say, a watered down version of college. In fact, the rigor can be every bit as strong or stronger than what you’ll find in a typical college or university class. And Murray was clear that the right teachers, the ones with that gleam in the eye, are critical to making that rigor work.

(55:22):
Another important takeaway is pedagogy. Murray champions guided inquiry and cooperative learning instead of the usual march through endless slides. Sure, it feels messy at times, but that kind of productive chaos is where students really wrestle with concepts and learn to think like scientists. We also touched on the pressures around money and speed, how dual enrollment is sometimes seen as just a shortcut to shave time and tuition. But Murray reminded us that the real goal is student growth and decision-making, not simply hurrying them out the door. It’s about helping young people figure out who they are and where they want to go. And speaking of growth, I tried something new with this episode. You probably noticed that the brain breaks were a little more interactive than usual. Instead of just resting your ears, I asked you to do small reflective tasks like jotting down words or questions to see if that adds a new layer of engagement. I’d really like to know what you think about that experiment. Did it work for you? Was it too much, too little? Let me know. You can always share your thoughts with me by calling the podcast hotline. That’s 1 – 8 3 3 – LION – DEN, or 1 – 8 3 3 – 5 4 6 – 6 3 3 6, or shoot me an email at podcast@theAPprofessor.org. I read and listen to every message, and I’d love to know how you’re connecting with these changes. That’s it for now. As always, thanks for being part of this teaching community with me. I’ll see you down the road.

Aileen Park (57:33):
The A&P Professor is hosted by Dr. Kevin Patton, an award-winning professor and textbook author in human anatomy and physiology.

Kevin Patton (57:44):
The A&P Professor podcast is not responsible for coffee or tea spilled during enthusiastic head nodding. Please caffeinate responsibly.