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TAPP Radio Ep. 28 TRANSCRIPTUsing Media in Our A&P Course - Advice From Barbara Waxer

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The A&P Professor podcast (TAPP radio) episodes are made for listening, not reading. This transcript is provided for your convenience, but hey, it’s just not possible to capture the emphasis and dramatic delivery of the audio version. Or the cool theme music.  Or laughs and snorts. And because it’s generated by a combo of machine and human transcription, it may not be exactly right. So I strongly recommend listening by clicking the LISTEN button provided.

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Episode 28 Transcript

Using Media in our A&P Course – Advice From Barbara Waxer

Kevin Patton: Today’s lucky numbers are four, six, eight, three, one.

Aileen: Welcome to The A&P Professor, a few minutes to focus on teaching human anatomy and physiology with host, Kevin Patton.

Kevin Patton: In this episode, I revisit the number of human genes, I discuss a newly discovered sensory structure in the gut, and we have a chat with media expert, Barbara Waxer. A recent article in Science News talked about the number of genes in the human genome being around 46,831 which is more than twice the number I gave not so long ago in episode 20 when I said that researchers were saying that there were about 21,306 genes in the human genome, so what’s going on there, we suddenly found way more genes? No, not really.

Kevin Patton: It’s actually based on the same work or at least a continuation of the same work, and this newer number, the larger number is a combination of the protein-coding genes, and the noncoding genes many of which are coding for those long RNAs that we know are being made in the cell and being used for a variety of purposes. Besides that there are also some noncoding genes not included in that number, that code for the microRNAs and other kinds of small RNAs that we’re just now figuring out what they are and what they do.

Kevin Patton: When you combine all of that together, you get this larger number. Last I heard, and people can call in or email me and correct me, but the last published number I’ve seen was back in August, and it’s 21,306 for protein-coding genes, and at that time, they said there were 21,856 noncoding genes. There were a total number of transcripts that they have identified. Well over 300,000. Those numbers that looks like they’re still standing, but this new article emphasizes a couple of things that I think it’s important for us as teachers who are covering this information need to think about, and need to be aware of.

Kevin Patton: One is how do you define a gene? Some people who actually work in genetics and do genomics and so on, they’re going to use the traditional method of calling a gene a protein-coding section of the DNA code. They’re not going to be considering those noncoding sections to be genes, but more and more, and probably mostly these days, they’re calling them all genes, so maybe that’s what we should be thinking about. When we wanna talk about those genes that dictate protein structure then we can call them coding genes or protein-coding genes to be clear, and then when we talk about those that are coding for the RNAs, then we can call them noncoding genes, and then together we can say all genes.

Kevin Patton: This is mostly not gonna come up in our A&P course, at least not as a big one discussion or maybe it will. I don’t know. I think it would be an interesting discussion, but as an A&P teacher, I think we need to know about these distinctions and know about the trends and also know that we still don’t have a final number so keep your eyes out. I’ll keep my eyes out. If you run across some, let me know because I wanna know what the latest number is. I think it’s interesting, and it is important to know what that number is. I think we’re gonna see a lot of changes in that number for the noncoding genes because as I say, that’s a newer area of explanation within the human genome. I’ll have links to all this in the show notes and on the episode page.

Kevin Patton: I wanna tell you a short little story about a new type of sensory structure that has been discovered in the mammalian body. They’re called neuropod cells. This story begins with another kind of sensory structure that we’re all familiar with because it’s in our A&P books and we probably at least mention it in our class and that is the structure of the skin for light pressure called the Merkel cell, tactile disc, Merkel disc, tactile meniscus. It’s a sensory cell that synapses with an epithelial cell in the epidermis of the skin.

Kevin Patton: The epithelial cell is often called the tactile epithelial cell, the sensory, neuron, the synapses with that epithelial cell would then be called the tactile disc or Merkel disc. You can probably picture it in your mind’s eye right now. We know that a bunch of other sensory apparatuses in the body are formed by a synapse between an epithelial cell and the sensory neuron. For example, the rods and cones in the eye that synapse with sensory neuron.

Kevin Patton: We have the taste buds. The epithelial cells of the taste buds synapsing with the neural network. When we get to the gut, we find that there is a structure that has just been identified that works pretty much the same way or at least it looks like it. The cells, epithelial cells that are involved are cells that we’ve known about for a long time. They’re usually called enteroendocrine cells. These are cells that are detecting changes in the lumen of the digestive tract, and they send out some hormonal signals, and that all helps in this big complicated mechanism of regulating the gut during the process of digestion and absorption, and so on.

Kevin Patton: What has recently been mapped out is the fact that these enteroendocrine cells actually acts like those tactile epithelial cells and that they also synapse with a neuron, a sensory neuron in much the same way. The diagrams look kind of similar to me at least. What are these cells doing and why are they there? Let me just mention a little bit about these cells. One thing is the name, neuropod cells is the newly proposed name whether that’s gonna stick or not, time will tell, but they’re basically the neuroendocrine cells, so if you talk about those in your class, you might wanna mention that, “Hey, we just discovered something new about them. We find that not only do they secrete hormones that are gonna act on a little bit longer term, they also secrete short acting neurotransmitters specifically glutamate and serotonin.

Kevin Patton: They form this in a synapse with these sensory cells that can very quickly get a message to the brain about what’s going on in the lumen of the digestive tract. What is this sensory information going back to the brain? Well, what’s being proposed is that this information might include information about what we’re eating, the sugars, the lipids, the proteins and also maybe even some signaling about what kind of microbes are there, what kind of interactions with microbes our body is having. All kinds of things are possible, but as usual with these kinds of discoveries there’s just a lot we don’t know yet.

Kevin Patton: These are all sort of proposed functions. Go to the show notes or the episode page and there are links to some other information about this, and dive into it, and look at what they found, and see what you think. By the way, I do have a sloppy little picture of this new sensory structure on the podcast page, and in the show notes. Feel free to use that in your class for teaching if you like.

Kevin Patton: In past episodes, discussions have come up regarding the use of images and other media in our A&P course whether it’s on a live or recorded presentation, in course handouts or other course content. I’ll have a link of those episodes in the show notes and in the episode page at theapprofessor.org.

Kevin Patton: As I’ve said, I think there’s a lot of confusion about we can and cannot use legally in our teaching, what the best practices are and even how you can get started finding helpful media to use in teaching. As I’ve mentioned, I’ve asked my friend Barbara Waxer to join us to help us begin the process of understanding some of the issues surrounding use of media in our teaching.

Kevin Patton: Barbara is a national speaker on copyright and media. She teaches media arts at Santa Fe Community College, and she’s written dozen of books and digital products including Internet Surf and Turf-Revealed: The Essential Guide to Copyright, Fair Use, and Finding Media. Sounds like that’s exactly who we should be talking to, right? Barbara, it’s always great chatting with you, and I’ve learned so much from over the years, and actually even just a few minutes ago, about finding and using media. Thank you so much for agreeing to join our conversation.

Barbara Waxer: Kevin, it’s always a pleasure.

Kevin Patton: Let’s just start with the big question we all have. In terms of media, what can I legally use in my classroom to teach, while besides my own original work?

Barbara Waxer: Well, as long as we use that magic term, legally, which actually we would say properly, there are no limits which is a great thing to say. Here’s the caveat: Provided you know how to find and use that work properly, so one of the things that I think we can have as a takeaway from this is how, A&P instructors can find work that already says yes to use. By that, what we’re talking about our licenses that are open such as Creative Commons and other sites like that.

Barbara Waxer: Sometimes it could just mean giving credit, sometimes it can mean you might have to pay a little bit for a license, but our assumption, and this is the hard part because we’re so used to consuming all sorts of media, the assumption has to be if you’re doing a search on the internet for media, that stuff you have to assume it’s going to be copyright protected.

Kevin Patton: Does it matter whether I’m teaching in a face to face class or in an online course?

Barbara Waxer: There are differences because there are different laws that govern face to face over online, and in online, those of us who teach online must adhere to something called the Teach Act, and that has very specific compliance requirements for both the educational institution, and for the instructor. The differs a little bit from face to face, and that’s because when we place our works in canvas, in blackboard, wherever we’re placing our materials for our students, that’s considered publishing and that has a different meaning in online work.

Kevin Patton: Wow. Okay. Well, that’s good to know. Are there different rules governing still images and video?

Barbara Waxer: No. That’s still all considered part of work, and copyright covers the creative arts, literary photography, music, dance, computer code. All that is considered creative stuff, that’s all covered by copyright so the type, the flavor really doesn’t matter.

Kevin Patton: I guess it’s okay to use images from the textbook I’m using because they’re provided by the publisher for that purpose. Does that mean that I can use them any way I want like, I don’t know, publishing copies of my PowerPoint presentation in a course pack or maybe in slide share or somewhere else on the web?

Barbara Waxer: That’s a loaded question, isn’t that?

Kevin Patton: Right.

Barbara Waxer: Here’s the deal. You and I have both been authors under traditional publishing contracts and this really depends, now we’re moving away from copyright law, we’re moving away from the Teach Act what governs what we can do as online instructors into the terribly exciting world of contract law and this has to do with the licensing agreements that the publishers give us when we adapt the book, and that’s really specific. For example, we’re used to seeing instructor resources. Sometimes publishers would provide quiz banks or online resources such as lecture notes or even PowerPoint using their own work.

Barbara Waxer: That all we have no problem using. The bottom line is once you adapt a book, whether you’ve read the terms or not, you’ve agreed to them, and that’s also true when you install an app or a software or land on a web page. There are defacto things that you’ve agreed to whether or not you’ve ever seen them.

Kevin Patton: Wow. Okay. I know …

Barbara Waxer: You mentioned course backs, so let me talk about that unless you had a follow-up real quick here.

Kevin Patton: No. That’s fine.

Barbara Waxer: Okay. Course backs can be problematic. There have been major Supreme Court cases of instructors who took a chapter here or some media there, put it all together in a course pack and never paid for that use to the source publisher, or author, or whatever. That actually became a Supreme Court case that involved the University of Michigan. That was a biggie. You can’t just compile, cobble together stuff, put it in a course back and say, “Hey, no problem.”

Barbara Waxer: However, there is a different way of looking at it especially if you work with your local librarian if you create e-reserves, and that’s really dependent on your educational institution and absolutely engaging your institutional librarian as an ally. First off, they have incredible knowledge. Secondly, that’s what they’re predisposed to do is to provide access to information.

Kevin Patton: That would include posting various places on the web in that too, if I posted a slide share for everybody to use, but I’m using the publisher’s material.

Barbara Waxer: Yeah. It’s a great question, and as our attorney friends love to say, it depends. What we first need to look at is, if that licensing agreement when you adapt a book, you need to make sure that they don’t explicitly say, “You can only use this in your learning management system for this class.” They know, of course. Now, we have to look into a different aspect of what I like to call the politics of reality. People are placing conference slide decks which is I do a lot. Other slide decks and slide share in other platforms.

Barbara Waxer: Of course, that’s going to have source material from let’s say an academic publisher. The first thing … And it’s onerous, and it’s not real fun. It’s not the sexy part of teaching is look what’s in that licensing agreement. If they explicitly say, “Do not use this unless it’s related to this class,” you’re now setting up a risk analysis. It depends how you feel about risk.

Kevin Patton: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Just thinking of a scenario here. Let’s say I use the publishers images and I put that in my PowerPoints and I know I can do that, and I use that for my class. Then I tell my class, “Well, I’m gonna post this on slide share, and here’s the link or some other place that anyone can access.” My intent is for this to be for my own students, but, again, in the real world, anybody who’s in, let’s say, slide share, or any of these other places where you can post stuff, and so I do a search for, I don’t know, for the function of the nephron in the kidney, and so up pops my presentation with my textbook images on there. Now, it’s really being accessed everywhere so we need to analyze the risk. Is that what you’re saying that what are odds that somebody else is gonna find it, and I’m gonna get in trouble for this?

Barbara Waxer: It’s problematic. Why is it problematic? Because we don’t know what your permission is to use those images because we don’t know what that agreement is. That’s the ideology of it.

Kevin Patton: Right.

Barbara Waxer: Now, the risk is the publisher gonna find your slide share, come back to you, get you, and your institution in trouble. At the very minimum, they’ll probably just say, pull it.

Kevin Patton: Right.

Barbara Waxer: But that’s why it’s important to understand, “Well, what are they letting me do to begin with?”

Kevin Patton: Sure.

Barbara Waxer: An absent information does not mean it’s permission, it really truly is. We can look at it like a risk analysis. Who doesn’t love slide share? You see all sorts of material there. Clearly there’s not copyright police from publishers or other content producers scouring that as they do for example YouTube if you’re a record company.

Kevin Patton: Right. I don’t know. It could be like the traffic cops. They always seem to find me. Everybody goes speeding by, but they find me.

Barbara Waxer: Actually, there’s a great example. The example I use in class is you have a broken tail light. You’re driving the car. How would you know you have a broken tail light? They pull you over, and what they say is you’re responsible for the maintenance of your vehicle at all times. You’re supposed to somehow know if you have a broken tail light.

Kevin Patton: Yeah. Circling back just a little bit to … This keeps coming up. What is our license or permission that we get from the publisher to use this stuff. I do know that stuff I’ve recently downloaded to use in a class from a publisher. It actually popped up with a little box that gave me some guidance on what I can and can’t do. It probably wasn’t as detailed as I’d like it to be now that I’ve talked to you but it did give me some guidance. I know that doesn’t always happen.

Kevin Patton: If I have a question about what can I legally use or not use then probably the best thing for me to do would be to contact whoever is my contact with the publisher that’s usually a rep assigned to my school, and I ask them what are the limitations here? What kind of license do I have? Then they should be able to get that for me or point me in the right direction, don’t you think?

Barbara Waxer: I think that’s true for some but based on their job description which is sales rep, they’re probably not gonna be having the kind of adept knowledge on the question that you’re asking. One alternative or maybe someone on the same parallel path, again, would be to engage a librarian who is used to reading that kind of language. They do that all the time for online subscriptions for the library, and getting them to go through that review, and looking at the built-in exception to copyright protection which is called fair use.

Barbara Waxer: There are four factors that we weight to determine something leans for or against fair use, and the librarians are the ones who I think can be our best allies on that, because the fact that something has copyright protection does not automatically mean we can’t use it, we just have to look at different ways that we can. Is there a specific exception in the law that will govern my specific use? Is there a different license I get? Is my use fair use? All these kinds of questions at the very end I think should be do I need to get permission to pay for it?

Kevin Patton: Well, I’m glad you had brought up a couple times now the librarian because this might just be me but it seems like … And this has happened at several different schools. Whenever I go to the librarian with this or other kinds of questions that are teaching related, they seem to just get a big smile on their face and take me by the hand. We have a nice long conversation about it. They seem to really enjoy this kind of work so my initial trepidation about, “Oh, I don’t want to bother them with this. They’re probably busy. It’s a dumb question. I should already know this.” My experience is just the opposite like, “Oh my gosh. More instructors need to be coming and having this conversation with me. I’m so glad you did. How can I help you?”

Barbara Waxer: I couldn’t agree more. I think some of it is for us as instructors to look at our own bias. if we associate the word librarian with, “Oh, yeah. I love reading books too.” That’s not a contemporary definition. I think more, “Oh, I’m gonna go to my librarian, why, because I know he or she totally is up on information systems. I know they know completely how to do a critical evaluation of sources, and they have more experience in reading these dense legal language that I do.”

Kevin Patton: That’s a good point. I guess I was gonna ask about this but, again, maybe a librarian can help me work this out in my own specific case, but just in general, if I change textbooks, so I’m using the images from a particular textbook, and a particular publisher, and let’s say the next year, I’m teaching the same course, but now I’ve changed to a different textbook, different publisher, but I have all of these slides I’ve already made, and I don’t wanna remake them all, at least not right away or there are certain images that the new book just doesn’t have, and I really like the old image. Can I keep using those older publisher images?

Barbara Waxer: I think we all have been in that same position. Love the new book, but man this quiz from chapter 4 was better, or like you say, I like the way they depicted this image better than the other. Again, it comes back to let’s just look at it. You got publisher A, and you got publisher B. Great. You’re now adapting publisher B’s book. Why would publisher A want you to still use their material? What are they getting from you? Nothing. It’s just dollar and cents argument. Why would anyone want you to use something for free if you’re no longer adapting their book?

Kevin Patton: Well, that’s a good point.

Barbara Waxer: To just start on that as your basic thing, it’s like now moving on from that. What’s the reality of teaching? We want to provide the best materials we can access to our students. There, again, your licensing agreement, we know what it says, it says, “Hey, if you’re no longer adapting the book, see you,” right?

Kevin Patton: Okay.

Barbara Waxer: For example, we no longer have the access to the instructive resources online site. If you switch from Pearson to Cengage, Pearson is gonna cut you off. You can’t see your stuff anymore if you posted anything, if your students ever did anything, you no longer have access to what Pearson provided. That should be your first clue.

Kevin Patton: That’s a good clue. I guess part of this comes down to something that has come up in a previous episode on this podcast and that is ethics and best practice. I think I need to ask myself questions of, “Yeah, maybe I can get away with this. Maybe they won’t find me, and I can still continue to use this, but is that the kind of ethical behavior I wanna model to my students. As you know our students are headed into health professions. They’re gonna be taking care of me some day. They are going to be taking care of my family, and I don’t want them to have been taught that it’s okay to not do things in an ethical way, in a legal way, so I wanna model that for them.

Kevin Patton: That’s why I’m talking to you. I wanna get some answers on what is the right way to do things and where are the points where there are risks? You’re giving a lot of good information, but also telling us that we have a guide that is always available to us, and that is our library staff.

Barbara Waxer: Absolutely.

Kevin Patton: Speaking of our librarians, one thing that you mentioned that I think is also one of the first questions people have when I talk about using various images and so on in their teaching is how, and where do I start looking for images and other media like video clips and so on that I can use in my teaching.

Barbara Waxer: That’s a great point, and with A&P, there’s a particular need because you have technology that’s so transformed, this community that we know you can find wonderful illustrations granted they’re from the 1800 that we know are in the public domain meaning they no longer have any copyright protection attached to them, but we know that our students want much more engaging material, motion graphics video and things like that.

Barbara Waxer: It’s considered relatively niche in terms of Google searching, but let me talk about a couple of things. One is as a great easy takeaway, we need to refine how we do our Google searches. By that, I mean add a minimum. If you’re certain … We know a lot of folks, A, “I’m just doing something real quick. Let me just search under Google images. Is it here? I’ve downloaded it. I’m done.” As we know the assumption has to be that, that work was protected. You’ve now downloaded something and are using it not even knowing if you have permission and probably doing it improperly which is called copyright infringement.

Barbara Waxer: Now, if we just refine our search were under Google images you do your search for whatever you want, a hip joint or whatever, and then under tools, and then you click usage rights, there’s an option labeled for reuse with modification. That at least filters out anywhere from 75 to 95% of the stuff that you can’t use. You still need to … This is how I teach this. You have to do due diligence. It’s not a perfect search algorithm, but at least just looking at tools, usage rights, labeled for reuse with modification. That modification element means, “Hey, I wanna crop it. Maybe I wanna do something else, put something over it.”

Barbara Waxer: Great. You’ve modified it. That at least will give you a pretty good pool to start swimming in, and then if you also add to your search term the term public domain. Again, public domain means there’s no copyright protection attached to that work. What you’re gonna pull up is the first stuff to ignore which is anything from Pinterest. That’s a different conversation. Just trust me on this one. Do not ever go to Pinterest as a source, but what you will find is an emphasis on organizations that have already done the work for such as universities, local and state government and photo sharing platforms that encourage and demand that users attach an open access license to their work such as Flickr.

Barbara Waxer: Just doing that this morning as I was preparing for our chat here, I found a great bevy of images from different universities particularly the University of Michigan and several others where, again, you know that you’re starting in a pool that’s already a lot safer. Does that make sense?

Kevin Patton: Sure. Yeah.

Barbara Waxer: Same with YouTube, by the way, and you can search for Creative Commons on YouTube and we can talk about that in a little bit.

Kevin Patton: What you’re saying is that instead of doing my usual search of quick, and dirty, I need a nephron in the kidney. I need a different image of a nephron in the kidney that I wanna use in my PowerPoint presentation, and that’s what I usually do is I just go to Google, type in nephron, kidney, something like that and get a bajillion things, and just pick the best one, and I’m done. What you’re saying is that best practices to add a little layer to make my search just a tiny bit more sophisticated by limiting what pops up in the screen to those things that are likely to be maybe in a public domain or have a Creative Commons license or something.

Kevin Patton: Now, instead of waiting though 2.3 billion images, I’m now down to half a billion images, but these are more likely to be safer. Then I find one that I like then I look a little closer at it, to see what is the permission that’s there. What is the copyright status of it? Then I can decide whether I wanna use it or not, and what the risks are, and so. Am I understanding what you’re saying correctly?

Barbara Waxer: Yeah, pretty much, but when you put public domain into that search term, and so many of the results come from universities who have large medical schools, they’ve done a lot of work for us already.

Kevin Patton: Ah, okay.

Barbara Waxer: We’re now tapping into their levels of protection, their levels of expertise. If you’re going to Harvard or Stanford, the University of Michigan, or pick your favorite large medical school, and you are into their batch of images, that’s really, really, really raises the bar where I’m feeling pretty good waving into that pool. The question is not so much can I use it, but rather how do I attribute my use? How do I give credit to the author?

Barbara Waxer: They’re, again, universities, and also government, so NIH for example has an awesome bevy of photos, and motion graphics, and video. The real question is, now that I know that I can use it, “Hey, I wanna give credit to the author, to the photographer, whoever it is,” and that’s the information that they can give you is cool, courtesy, whoever. That’s the easy part.

Kevin Patton: Aha. Okay. You’re bringing up something that has come up in a previous episode and that is this idea of giving credit for work that’s not our own, and whether we’re required to do that or not, it still gets back to is it the ethical thing to do, is it the right thing to do. The way this came up was that we’re talking about plagiarism, and these students really understand what plagiarism is that they really do need to give credit when they’re quoting someone else. I made the point that sometimes they don’t really understand what plagiarism is and I think it complicates things for our students when they see us using other people’s work, and not having any kind of citation as to where that came from.

Barbara Waxer: Absolutely.

Kevin Patton: I’m not being a good model for my students, and so I get on their case, if I run across a quote that wasn’t cited, or an image or something that they’re using in a report or another assignment, and they haven’t credited, they haven’t told me what the source is at the minimum, much less whether it’s something that they’re able to use which usually they are but there’s no citation there. If I’m not doing it, then how can I expect them to do it?

Kevin Patton: Not only that, it helps me. I’m going back to my materials. I know where I got stuff. I know where it came from, and if I ever for some reason need to go back to that source, I know where to go. My brain is becoming less and less likely to be able to pull that stuff out of my memory.

Barbara Waxer: Well, and also, I teach writing for mass media on the web where epistemology, understanding how do I know that? How can I trust this source especially with some people with some truly incredible Photoshop skills who can just do amazing photo in digital manipulation? Attribution is an awesome best practice. When we talk a little bit about plagiarism, that usually is associated with written works, and what we’re saying is I’m referencing this in my material, I’m not saying I wrote it. Plagiarism is not a great applicability to images because no one is saying I took this photo with my $10,000 camera and microscope if I’m doing cytology or something.

Barbara Waxer: It’s a different thing. Plagiarism is saying, “I did not create it.” Copyright is saying, “I’m using it properly,” and that’s a distinction I think we need to make. Attribution of an image or a motion graphic or a video has nothing to do with saying, “I have permission to use it in the first place.” All you’re saying, “I didn’t create it,” and it’s into a different realm.

Kevin Patton: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you’re giving us some starting points like University of Michigan has some images that I might be able to use, and HS images I might be able to use. How do I find where those places are? [crosstalk 00:36:31]

Barbara Waxer: I guess I think just first off as you know this is a passion of mine. On my website, I have over 750 photo sites, 3,000 sites total that reference sites on the web that already say yes, and they say yes because their contributors have committed to either an open access license like Creative Commons or a relatively new Creative Commons license that’s called CC0 where its public domain. It’s the photographer saying, “I love this, you know what. I don’t need any credit. You can use it however you want. With my site which is www.barbarawaxer.com, B-A-R-B-A-R-A W-A-X-E-R, that’s one source, but that’s for everything.

Barbara Waxer: I think it really is gonna go back for A&P folks to refining that Google search and putting public domain as part of your search terms. The reason I say that is because that’s how our friends in other large universities and state and local governments and federal government will catalog. We wanna tap into the metadata of how these other folks are capturing their data, and how they’re capturing their data, and how they’re tagging their data, and public domain is gonna be a great term

Kevin Patton: As you were explaining that, I was just thinking this is something else I can ask my school librarian about, and they can help me locate sources, right?

Barbara Waxer: Oh, specifically for A&P, that’s a finesse. I think that’s such a specialty but absolutely they can. Absolutely. Let me just put this out there for your colleagues, if you’re really stuck on something, contact Kevin, and he’ll contact me, and I’ll be glad to help you.

Kevin Patton: Sounds great. Well, I appreciate that.

Barbara Waxer: You bet.

Kevin Patton: Barbara, I appreciate so much you taking the time to talk to us today. This is a topic that has come up numerous times, and I think a lot of people, a lot of us that are out there teaching, we really don’t have much background in how we should be doing things and what the best practices are. I’m gonna have a link in the show notes and on the episode page at theapprofessor.org where I’ll have Barbara’s website and I’ll have maybe a couple other resources to get you started.

Kevin Patton: Of course the strong advice to sit down with your librarian and have a chat with them, and clarify some of the things that you have. If you have any further questions, go ahead and contact me at podcast at theapprofessor.org or call the podcast hotline at 1-833-LION-DEN. Maybe we can get Barbara back here sometime to answer some follow up questions and once again, thank you so much for helping us today, Barbara, and I’ll be talking to you again soon.

Barbara Waxer: You bet. This was awesome. Thanks again.

Aileen: The A&P Professor is hosted by Kevin Patton, professor, blogger, and textbook author in human anatomy and physiology.

Kevin Patton: Please remove the battery from this episode before packing it in your luggage.

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